Increasing Contao's visibility & usage internationally

The Contao team just concluded our monthly conference call where we discuss business, issues, development and the like. One of our recurring topics is about how we can increase Contao's visibility and usage both internationally and in the US. I would like to hear your thoughts and ideas on how you think we could accomplish this.

It seems that many web designers in the US are fixated on using Joomla, Wordpress, Drupal and Expression Engine. Do you have ideas, resources or things you can do to increase our US user base?

Discuss ...

At last. I have been thinking about Contao expantion too, and the one of my best ideas is to write a comprehensive tutorial how to create a full-feature website in the Contao. Some time ago I started similar thing but in polish language. You can check it out here:
http://translate.google.com/translate?j ... l=pl&tl=en

After we got such a guide for new users, we can publish it e.g. on nettuts+. That would definitely increase the number of new visitors.

Secondly, I think a new website needs to be launched, like http://drupal.org/planet (maybe not the best example but still). Although we already got the official Contao website, the place where people could read articles and gather. You know, some kind of community page.

This is something I've thought about to myself a lot as well. The gist of Tru's post -- we need more documentation/reference -- is dead on.

The popular CMS's have been around longer, and that's something you can't control. But Contao has the edge on features, ease of use, power & flexibility, quality of code base, and framework, in my mind. What's missing is the documentation to get new users up to speed. There's 2 parts to this -- administering the site (installation / setup / etc.) that has some decent documentation but probably needs more, especially tutorials that are more use-case specific (how-to's) rather than general overviews.

The other part is development (enhancing the core / writing extensions / etc.). This is where the documentation is truly lacking, and it's turning people away. What exists is useful, but there is SO MUCH that is not covered at all. Expert, veteran programmers have the capability to look through code and figure things out for themselves, but most of us are not of that caliber. I think there's a whole type of user that is a mix of front-end person and coder (but more so front-end), and they want to dabble and write simple enhancements, but they aren't programmers (nor do they want to be). Generally they learn to code by searching for specific tutorials on how to achieve what they're after and following along. This is easy with something like WordPress, as documentation is EVERYWHERE. If you Google a specific problem, most likely you will find it. That's why these other CMSs are so popular IMHO, it's because they're easy to learn and get into, not because they are better CMSs.

Contrast that to the response one gets all too often here, which is "take a look at the source code for Extension XYZ and see how they do it". I'm sorry, but in many people's eyes that just isn't an acceptable way to learn, nor is it any substitute for documentation or reference. Like I said, not everyone is that smart. More importantly, they DON'T have hours to reverse engineer something every time they want to solve a problem (remember, most people are seeking answers because they are in the middle of a project with a deadline and need a timely solution).

I think (like you rightly concluded at the previous meeting) that the community can help tremendously with the first type. With the other CMSs a great deal of useful documentation comes from the community and not from the developers. But I think it's kind of a snowball effect -- once it gets rolling and people get more enthused, this type of thing grows exponentially.

The other type is harder to figure out. So few English-speaking people know the underlying code intimately that it creates a bit of a bottleneck. New users can't get their foot in the door to learn the framework, which means they can't turn around and help that next wave of users, so we're all a bit stuck here in the U.S. I feel like there's this wealth of information written in German that is tantalizingly out of our reach over here.

So I think it's 90% documentation. And I think the thought up to this point has been, if the product is good enough, people will come (and take the time to learn it). I disagree -- making it easy for people to learn is ALMOST more important than the quality of the product itself. It doesn't matter how great the music in the club is if no one can get past the bouncer and through the door.

And the other 10%? A slick back-end interface theme. Let me first say that there is NOTHING wrong with the backend interface -- I love it for all it's minimal cleanliness and understated charm. But people value appearance -- and more than they should. And honestly much of the appeal of WordPress or ExpressionEngine is that slick backend interface with the gradients and the rounded corners and the 1px bevels and such. If the default theme was something like those, a surprising number of people would be drawn in enough just by the design. The good old U.S. -- we're all about what's on the surface. :)

Hi excellent discussion.

Io penso che Contao sia un ottimo prodotto, completo e flessibile.

Unfortunately for the reasons that led us to change name (TYPOlight -> Contao) our CMS has not yet exploded as it deserves

The project must compete with CMS used for many years and very large community.
The potential is good and I think it will grow soon.

With version 2.9.0 and the introduction of the themes you can share issues and create free themes. This will allow users to quickly customize Contao.

I think it would be good to have more documentation in English.

One problem I notice is that example, I see the extensions in both the English section is the section in German.
This is because section in German there are extensions that have only the German language. English should be mandatory in my opinion.

I also suggest that greater involvement of communities through their work contribute to the local audience.
Inform them about initiatives and events to attend (eg counted Month Free Themes)


Finally a suggestion that I do not know if feasible.
To capture users Joompla or Wordpress could be considered a converter to bring the contents of Joomla and Wordpress on Contao?!

Hi all, in addition of this useful discussion:

Feel free to contribute and share your knowledge at the Contao community wiki -> http://en.contaowiki.org.

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Originally Posted by planepix

Hi all, in addition of this useful discussion:

Feel free to contribute and share your knowledge at the Contao community wiki -> http://en.contaowiki.org.

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I might be whining, but I think this wiki IS NOT and NEVER will be good. First of all and most important, the traditional wiki layout is very outdated and not attractive. In the web2.0 era, visitor need something clear and simple, but also eye-catching. Take a look at Wordpress Docs or Symfony Docs. Why not learn from best?

Secondly, wiki doesn't have to be based on the wiki-engine, just because IT'S WIKI. I'd rather see a website driven by Contao that has attractive and simple design, rather than an ordinary wikipage.

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Originally Posted by planepix

Feel free to contribute and share your knowledge at the Contao community wiki -> http://en.contaowiki.org.

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I know this site, thanks

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Originally Posted by Tru

Why not learn from best?
Secondly, wiki doesn't have to be based on the wiki-engine, just because IT'S WIKI. I'd rather see a website driven by Contao that has attractive and simple design, rather than an ordinary wikipage.

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I agree with what he wrote Tru

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Originally Posted by Tru

… the traditional wiki layout is very outdated and not attractive.

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The WIKI is still waiting for someone to dress it nicer ;) You're welcome (and encouraged) to create a new design.

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Originally Posted by Tru

Secondly, wiki doesn't have to be based on the wiki-engine, just because IT'S WIKI. I'd rather see a website driven by Contao that has attractive and simple design, rather than an ordinary wikipage.

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The WIKI does have the advantage that everybody can add and edit text. A conventional Contao website has to be driven by an individual or small team that writes and organizes the texts (like Nina Gehrling's manual for editors which unfortunately is German only). The community is free to create sites like this – though this should be coordinated or at least announced before starting to prevent the creation of multiple sites with basically the same content.

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Originally Posted by FloB

The WIKI does have the advantage that everybody can add and edit text. A conventional Contao website has to be driven by an individual or small team that writes and organizes the texts (like Nina Gehrling's manual for editors which unfortunately is German only). The community is free to create sites like this – though this should be coordinated or at least announced before starting to prevent the creation of multiple sites with basically the same content.

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I see no problem in adding comments module or "Write an article" form to the Contao powered website. Although wiki provides a ready-to-go system to edit the content by everyone, it does not provide editors. So far all my wiki-based projects were successfully killed due to lack of authors. From my observations people are lazy and only few among them want to participate in such initiatives. Even if you look at huge community like Drupal has, the wiki is created only by several guys, and it actually works.

It would be better to gather a small team that maintains the Contao help-pages, than wait and count on community to fill the wiki.

The German part of the wiki is filled pretty quickly. And we're not filling it by saying it won't work out.

Ben, I sent you something to the same effect, but my belief is that Contao really needs a "unique value proposition" type of message that separates it from the other options.

I REALLY think that Contao's development framework is the most appealing part of the platform. As has been brought up here, the problem is that there is a lack of English documentation to that effect. I think that with some good documentation for basic extension development, it has a lot of potential to gain some attention.

The reason that Wordpress/Joomla/Drupal are so popular is that they attract people who just want a cookie cutter site. I don't see that as the primary audience for Contao. I see a majority of Contao users as people who are interested in what they can customize, mod, and generally what they can do with the platform. I don't see a whole lot of CMS platforms out there who brand themselves as a "developer/modders dream" aside from MODx, and I see a lot of opportunity there, because I am not convinced MODx has as great a framework.

I am willing to put some serious effort into an English developer's documentation. I would love to recruit other community members to help with the process... I think that once more people see how easy it is to customize the platform it will attract a lot more attention. Please PM me if you are interested in helping...

I will say that part of me hesitates to even mention it to other developers because I really feel like I have some sort of "secret weapon" at my disposal, but I do anyways, just to see their eyes pop at how easy it is to work with...

Interesting topic Ben.

As I see it, there are a number of things that needs improvement, in order to attract a larger audience.

From the top of my head...

1. Not all documentation is available in English. This is especially true for Extensions and Books.[/*:m:nj4cllip]
2. More step-by-step user tutorials, beginners and how-to guides.[/*:m:nj4cllip]
3. More free themes, and an easy way to find and preview those themes.[/*:m:nj4cllip]
4. Update/Removal of outdated documentation. As an example, some of the available videos are showing off old versions of the CMS.[/*:m:nj4cllip]
5. Free "live update" service, to compete with the auto update of e.g. Wordpress 3 (I know this one is kinda sticky, as it is part of Leo's "bread and butter")[/*:m:nj4cllip]

Sometimes being the best CMS out there just isn't enough :-)

The problem is that leo provided a WIKI originally, then since I started using that, he changed the wiki like 5 times already and I'm not in the habit of rewriting the WIKI code so many times. This is pure frustration.

Well since documentation is the lacking part, why not write a WIKI engine for Contao. That will make us able to edit documentation, not only for our own extensions on our own Contao sites, but also allow us to port our stuff to another Contao site easily. This will also allow us to create WIKI content on our client sites for their own documentation.

I know the Contao CE editor is fantastic, but we can't all have BE access to a contao system for WIKI documentation, now can we? Maybe we should rather do that? Each User get's a home page and we can add our own Ariticle content on it. Then at least it's all in 1 place, not spread out all over multiple developer sites.

thyon, the WIKI is run by some of the community members, neither Leo nor the Contao team. I'm pretty sure there's nothing that will be changed with the current WIKI (except the design).

I'm sorry to say this, but if increasing this CMS's visibility was a priority, renaming from TYPOLight to Contao, seems to me to be a seriously poor marketing decision... the name is immensely forgettable, has the toy-like connotations of "Joomla", and perhaps this is just me - sounds just plain silly. Yes, the name TYPOLight perhaps had some connotations that could be misunderstood - but actually more connotations that were positive, professional and descriptive, and it sounded like a serious tool, rather than a toy or a breakfast drink. I think a lot of good will has been lost.

Call me shallow (guilty), but I'd be lying if I said that my enthusiasm for the CMS has not greatly waned since the name change.

Is Contao targetting the (semi-) professionals? Contao is growing steadily because of the quality. People who manage to get one site done seem to tell others; I've witnessed that a few times. But if you want faster growth you need more users, the current progress is as it seems not enough.

Most people cannot use Contao ... yet
I think the best way to increase Contao's visibility is to make it an easy setup CMS with at least (say) 25 different themes to choose from online. Right now any person who understands the basic setup of files and db can already setup Contao just as easily as the other systems. But my neighbor will not be able to setup the Contao website other then when using the music academy because he does not know html nor css. He is able to setup Joomla or Wordpress because themes are available online...

So if the setup offers to initialize basic pages (home and contact), a contact form and a theme to install the problem is solved and a lot more people can potentially use Contao.

By just targeting (semi-) professionals you might not reach all of them. If Contao is used more it gets noticed more and the professionals should recognize good things when they investigate them. The thing is to find a balance in targeting both user groups.

Hope this makes sense!

I do agree with Paulie in that I still am not used to the name "Contao" and it seems odd to me. I do not really care what it is called personally, but it is a big part of the identity. However, "Joomla!" isn't that much better though highly popular.

And I would like more documentation as well even though the framework isn't that hard to figure out once you've looked at it long enough!

I know you're all tired of seeing my posts all over this forum but here's my 2 cents :D

From a developer's point of view, Contao is THE Heaven of all CMSs; easy to work with, framework is great, the whole program flows well... but from a simple end-user's point of view... Contao is like... the River Styx :? .

I think Medianomoly nailed it on the head with this one

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Originally Posted by Medianomaly

Expert, veteran programmers have the capability to look through code and figure things out for themselves, but most of us are not of that caliber. I think there's a whole type of user that is a mix of front-end person and coder (but more so front-end), and they want to dabble and write simple enhancements, but they aren't programmers (nor do they want to be). Generally they learn to code by searching for specific tutorials on how to achieve what they're after and following along.

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Originally Posted by Medianomaly

Contrast that to the response one gets all too often here, which is "take a look at the source code for Extension XYZ and see how they do it". I'm sorry, but in many people's eyes that just isn't an acceptable way to learn, nor is it any substitute for documentation or reference. Like I said, not everyone is that smart. More importantly, they DON'T have hours to reverse engineer something every time they want to solve a problem (remember, most people are seeking answers because they are in the middle of a project with a deadline and need a timely solution).

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I know I've thrown out a lot of questions on "how do I get this module to do this", partly because there is a lack-there-of in documentation (reading broken english translations don't help).

If you've noticed, the most active persons using Contao at the moment know how to code, have been in the web design business for a while, and know how to observe the behavior of CMSs and adapt.

The biggest obstacles for getting more into the U.S. market is undoubtedly English documentation, but also out-of-the-box, ready to go modules... styled and all. Hell, I love messing with CSS but the average user does not. They'll plug-in the module see how plain it looks, and move onto the next one they can find. I've been noticing more themes being uploaded to the repository... and I didn't even knew free themes existed for Contao until I accidentally ran across them in a search in the repository. You know us Americans are lazy and we want variety... and above all... we want it NOW :D

If Contao wants to stay as an "Industrial" type CMS and work with professionals only, it should keep on doing what it's doing. If it wants to get into the common sector, these two obstacles have to be addressed.

I can only find one frontend theme... That won't satisfy a lot of Americans ;) Euhm, edit, that's in the repository ... I found several here: http://www.contao.org/contao-themes-and-templates.html

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Originally Posted by Vera

I can only find one frontend theme... That won't satisfy a lot of Americans ;)

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My boss cringes at that :? . Only thing I can say to her is that "It's a developers CMS"

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Originally Posted by Vera

Euhm, edit, that's in the repository ... I found several here: http://www.contao.org/contao-themes-and-templates.html

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$$$ :( cringe even more

EDIT:
However I did do a filter in the extension repository, and there are 8 themes available for download. Whopping number of free themes for how long this CMS has been available :?

I did some searching and there are theme websites for Contao alone. So that's good news. But the themes in the repository are mostly backend themes....